EGEMEN BAGIS ON HARDTALK, AGAIN

Minister for EU Affairs and Chief Negotiator Egemen Bagis attended the Hardtalk, a program on BBC World Channel presented by Stephen Sackur. 

Text of the interview:

BBC World News TV

STEPHEN SACKUR: Turkey is a rising power in a strategically vital region but it does not have the ability to shape events beyond its borders. Officials in Ankara would like to see Turkey inside the EU and gaining the leadership in the Middle East. The both goals remain elusive. My guest today is Turkey’s Minister for EU Affairs and Chief Negotiator Egemen Bagis. His country is flexing some diplomatic muscle, but it does not have the desired effect yet.  Egemen Bagis, welcome to Hardtalk.

EGEMEN BAGIS: It is good to be back.

SACKUR: Turkey’s message to Europe for a long time now has been simple: We are a key regional power and we have major influence across the Middle East. But if we look at what is happening in your neighbor Syria today, that massage doesn’t seem to be whole true.

BAGIS: Well, when you look at what is happening in the Arab Spring today, you realize that Turkey is a source of inspiration. People who risk their lives in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, wanted to transform their country into a country like Turkey because they look at Turkey and they say “Well, look at these Turks, they have democracy, they have human rights, they have opposition, they have government, they have NGOs, they have trade unions, they have free market economy; but yet they have the same culture as we have, we live in the same geography. If they could do, why can’t we?” And that has been a very important push for them because for the last ten years Turkey’s democracy has become even stronger. There is a leader in Turkey; Prime Minister Erdogan who has been re-elected by his own people with an increased margin of vote ratio for the third time. He has made his country much more modern, much more livable, much richer, and much more transparent. All that has started an influence throughout the region.

SACKUR: This influence may be some sort of inspiration; but the fact is, if we look at what is happening in your immediate neighbor Syria today, Prime Minister Erdogan, along the other leaders who have sent a clear message to the Assad regime, saying in effect: “It is time for you to go, the way you treated to your people is unacceptable, we will take all measures we can to further democratic reform in Syria”. And these things have made no difference.

BAGIS: We did so in Tunisia and look what is happening now, they are having elections.

SACKUR: But in your immediate neighbor Syria, your interventions have made no difference.

BAGIS: Not yet. People still know if it could change in Libya, if things could change in Egypt, things can definitely change in Syria as well. It is not the Syrian President who stops this; it is because some of the permanent representatives of the Security Council of the United Nations have not given the necessary messages to Assad. And I think we have to work together with our friends in the United Nations. We cannot accept a government bombing their own cities, killing their own innocent people.

SACKUR: If you cannot accept it, the question becomes whether you prepared to try to stop it; for example?

BAGIS: Through the international consensus. Any action has to be multinational. Turkey should not act alone, neither should UK, nor US, nor Russia, nor China. We have to sit together, look at the opportunities and convince the leadership in Syria that they are in the wrong path.

SACKUR: We go back to the United Nations and we can talk about regional diplomacy, but on practical level what we see right now are Syrian forces besieging Homs, we see a humanitarian crisis, we see thousands of civilians reported dead. But when we lokk at Syria and Turkey, some forces want to send weapons to the Syrian rebels forces across your border from Turkey.

BAGIS: It depends how that decision is made. If one country claims, on their own, that they have the right to flow weapons, it would not sound logical.

SACKUR: The Syrians have accused you of turning a blind eye to weapons going across your border for months. Is it true that the weapons are going across your border?

BAGIS: Syrians have been playing their game for quite a while. Syria even harbored PKK terrorism for decades. In the recent ten years they have started to behave in a different way. Now they are blaming that Turkey is behind this organization or that organization which is totally false. What Turkey wants to see is peace in the neighborhood. We have a saying in Turkish: if your neighbor’s house is on fire and if you don’t help them put it out, that fire will eventually burn your own home. Now we are trying to prevent fires, we want stability, we want democracy, and we want freedom for all to come peacefully. First of all, the first practical step was we are accepting many refugees that have fled from Syria. Up to now more than 20.000 people have found safe haven in Turkey. Right now in the biblical city of Antioch, there is a camp city, a tent city where more than 8.000 people with children have been provided shelter, food, schools, health needs. And we are doing our bests to help them as their neighbor. We have been living in the same geography for centuries. We would like Syria to have their own territorial integrity, to have their own democracy, to have their own richness, and live happily. We are not after a war, we just want them to be happy.

SACKUR: But the reality is nobody in Syria right now appears to be happy. The UN wants to give a decision on Syria, however China and Russia are clearly opposed to this. So you are saying without a new UN Security Council resolution, Turkey will not undertake any sort of intervention even with its partners in the Arab world.

BAGIS: I am not taking anything off the table. Everything is on the table. We have to sit and discuss. We have to find a solution together with Syria and other countries of Arab Union.  There are people dying. There is bloodshed and there is a sick mentality that is killing its own citizens and we have to stop this. We have to discuss whatever it takes.

SACKUR: The Turkish government’s message to Bashar al-Assad is that he has to go now, and you also say that he has to face justice.

BAGIS: If he thinks he has enough popularity with his own people, then he can reform his country, he can have fair elections. But if this is not the situation, he has to respect the will of public.

SACKUR: Your message as the Turkish Government to Europe has been you are a rising diplomatic, strategic power that Europe needs inside but Europe does not seem to listen this message.

BAGIS: Well, Europe is preoccupied with so many of its own problems that it cannot see the light. Europe, right now, is going through an economic crisis. There is an upcoming energy crisis. Some politicians in Europe are so scared that they are going to lose their power in the next elections. There are other internal issues of some countries. The Commission is trying to keep the union together. There is a fatigue of enlargement. So, in that confusion Turkey is trying to say: “Hold on tight Europe, Turkey is coming to rescue.” We can help.

SACKUR: When we think about the application process lasting for seven years, You must be very disappointed. The process is completely frozen. No new chapters were opened to negotiations in recent years. France is also blocking. You seem to be stuck, would you accept that?

BAGIS: If you look at the process from the negotiation point of view, you might think that we are at standstill. But if you look at the process in terms of Turkey’s reforms for democracy, for transparency, for prosperity, for self-confidence, the reforms are faster than ever.

SACKUR: No progress has been seen in your relationship with Southern Greek Cypriot Administration. You have definitely refused to accept the EU’s demand that you open up your ports to Southern Greek Cypriot Administration traffic. You continue to say if Southern Greek Cypriot Administration assumes the EU presidency, you will freeze relationships with the entire EU.

BAGIS: No, we will not freeze the relationships with the EU or with European Parliament. We cannot accept the EU Presidency of an administration that we don’t recognize.

SACKUR: When you said last year, when it came to the Greek Cypriots beginning to gas exploration activity in the official area around Southern Greek Cypriot Administration, you said that you might have taken a military action against SGCA.

BAGIS: But we did not do this.  We have to find out whom that oil or gas in the questionable waters belongs to. Does it belong to Egypt, Turkey, SGCA, Greece, or Israel?

SACKUR: You say Turkey has fundamentally changed. But when we look at the journalists in prison and basic freedoms of expression are restricted in your country; we see that Turkey has not changed in that way.

BAGIS: There is no journalist who has been detained because of their profession. There are some people who carry journalist identification cards, who have been caught while raping another person, who have been caught robbing a bank. But they are not detained because of writing some articles that we do not like. There are journalists who have written much worse articles and they enjoy their right to continue doing that.

SACKUR: As well as the EU, the Americans are deeply concerned. These are the words of the US Ambassador Francis Ricciardone, he said: “How can there be intellectuals and journalists behind bars in a country that really values freedom?”

BAGIS: I would not like to see one intellectual behind any bar. As Voltaire said: “I would risk my own life for them to express their views.” But, being a member of media does not provide immunity to commit crimes. I don’t know if it does in UK but it sure does not in Turkey. If someone is caught while robbing a bank, if someone is caught while killing another, they are not going to get away just because they are journalists.

SACKUR: Minister, when you come to capitals like London you talk to ministers about Turkey’s continuing determination to join the EU, does it concern you that the international observers like World Press Freedom Index see Turkey at the worst levels in terms of freedom of press and that they evaluate Turkey on the same level of Chavez’s Venezuela.

BAGIS: Well, we are trying to fix that. I am not proud of it. You are right. This is true. That’s why we have introduced judicial reforms. That’s why we amend our laws. But this is not something that we did. This is something that we inherited from previous governments and we are trying to change it. We went to the people to amend the constitution and 58% of the society supported our demands to amend the constitution. Only after that we could change this structure of the judicial branch.  We could change the structure of the Constitutional Court. We could change the structure of High Court of Judges and Prosecutors.

SACKUR: You have been talking about changing the judicial structure for years.

BAGIS: Our Government has been in power for ten years. For the first eight and a half years every time we attempted a judicial decision, a court decision stopped this. Only after the constitutional referendum of September 2010, we could realize serious judicial reforms. Right now, there is a pending package in the Parliament which is going to reduce the detention period, which is going to help the release of many of the people under detention.

SACKUR: Most of the observers say you still have some way to go and it is not just about the EU, it is also to do with the manner, with the way of saying. Thinking of France, I mean you have a profound problem with France.

BAGIS: Not with France.

SACKUR: Then with the French parliamentarians who adopted a law which assumes the rejection of Armenian genocide as a criminal offense. Your Prime Minister considered this as a policy of racism, discrimination and of xenophobia. He said that this was a policy to use phobia of Turks and Islamophobia with the aim of gaining votes. Do you also think that France looks at Turkey in this way?

BAGIS: It is the French Constitutional Court who agreed with our Prime Minister and annulled that parliamentary decision. That law no longer exists right now. French Parliamentarians collected signatures to take that law to their High Court. And this Court agreed that the law is against the spirit of the French Revolution and French Constitution.

SACKUR: My question: Is France Turk-phobic?

BAGIS: Not France, but some people in France.

SACKUR: I am thinking to myself, after a challenging period of seven years, why are you - still trying to convince the EU to let Turkey in? Why do you continue with this, if you think powerful forces in France which are the key members of the EU are actually Turk-phobic?

BAGIS: A French President has stood up and talked about a country that was a close ally of the USA, a country that was not European, a country that should not have been in Europe. He was not talking about Turkey. The French President was De Gaulle and was talking about United Kingdom many years ago. We now see the same arguments used by current French leaders against Turkey. If your country didn’t mind fighting back and tried to convince your neighbors to be a part of this big peace project named as European Union, why should my country defer? Turkey is determined to be a part of the biggest peace project of history of mankind which is called the EU. But it is yet a continental peace project; Turkey can turn it into a global peace project. And I tell you how: When Prime Minister Erdogan went to Tunisia, Libya and Egypt; there were many Muslim leaders who could have gone and prayed with the local people and there were many Western leaders like your Prime Minister who could have gone and talked about secularism and democracy. But there are not too many who can do both. That is what Turkey did. He went there and prayed with the local people and he said to them:  “Don’t be afraid of your secularism, I am a secular and a devout believer.”

SACKUR: The problem is, Minister, you point out all these reasons for it is vital for Europe to have Turkey inside the EU. Here is the reality, 22 % of Turks now have trust in EU institutions according to the latest poll. It was 51 % just a few years ago. Turks are losing their trust in EU which is in economic crisis while your country grows 8% a year.

BAGIS: Why are they losing interest? Why are they losing their trust? Because of these narrow minded statements by some European politicians. If they can come to their senses, the trust ratio in Turkey will grow up, and the interest for Europe will increase. Look, Europe might have a problem right now in terms of their economy. But 15 % of the foreign trade of my country is with Europe. 85 % of foreign direct investment in Turkey comes from EU. 60 % of 32 million tourists we host every year in Turkey come from EU. So it is Europe’s problem. We should help Europe and solve this problem.

SACKUR: Turkey may be the regional leader required within the club. It is now obvious that your zero-problem policy with your neighbors is no longer valid. We can talk about Syria, we can talk about Iran and we can talk about Syria. You have plenty of problems with your neighbors. So why would EU want to have you, when you fail to have good neighboring relations?

BAGIS: We can establish good neighboring relations. We can fix the relations with them. And we can do it better with the EU and the EU can do it much better with Turkey. Today’s Turkey is much better than yesterday’s Turkey and I assure you that tomorrow’s Turkey will be even greater than today’s. We are growing 9% in a year. Turkey has access to 70 % of the energy resources needed by Europe. Turkey has the strongest military in Europe. Europe needs Turkey, at least as much as Turkey needs Europe. This is an issue of win-win.